Teen Gothic

I want to start by saying that I’m white and not speaking on anyone’s behalf. I’m responding to a pattern I’ve noticed on Reddit and other social media and it’s been bothering me for some time.

Over the years, I’ve seen posts from POC goths who’ve been bullied or excluded for not fitting the “pale” ideal, which is ridiculous. What’s worse is how often their concerns are dismissed with claims that goth has always been inclusive. Even when the intentions behind those comments are good, the impact isn’t. It shuts down conversation instead of addressing the issue.

Yes, goth (and punk before it) was often more accepting than other subcultures. Punk was influenced by rude boy culture, and reggae and dub were played alongside it at shows. But that doesn’t mean racism didn’t exist in those scenes. “More inclusive than average” isn’t the same as being inclusive for everyone.

A lot of us who were born well after the civil rights era (myself included) don’t fully understand what exclusion looked like in practice. I grew up in rural Florida and saw overt racism firsthand, but I never experienced places where Black people simply weren’t allowed, and pretending I fully understand that reality would be dishonest.

We can acknowledge that goth aspired to be inclusive in its inception and still listen when POC goths talk about the real challenges they face today. Giving credit where it’s due shouldn’t come at the expense of dismissing lived experiences.

If we actually care about the values we claim, that means listening, empathizing, and speaking up when we see this kind of thing.

Edit for clarification:

I’m not talking about “permission” to be in the subculture or gatekeeping who gets to call themselves goth. What I am talking about is how, in practice, POC goths are still talked over, dismissed, or told that they’re just one-off incidents.

When someone shares what they’re dealing with and the response is an overwhelming chorus of “goth has always been inclusive,” it can come across as dismissive, even if the intention is good.

Hi All,

I just finished Andrew Reed's Assimilate, and loved it, found it well-researched, enjoyable to read, etc. He only briefly touched on the Gothic and Darkwave both from a literary analysis and the cross-pollination of Goth and Industrial subcultures, but he whetted my taste (particularly because he mentioned "pseudo-medieval music" without talking about Dead Can Dance) for a more critical examination of the Gothic, both in its roots in the literary genre, the analysis of the music and its production, and an analysis of the subculture. I was curious if anyone had written a work of similar breadth as Reed's on the topic? Thus far I've found a number of historical texts (Art of Darkness, Goth: A History, Season of the Witch), but I'm not sure, beyond their own description, which is more extensive or would suit my designs better.

Recommendations of scholarly and non-scholarly articles, journals, and even fanzines alike are also welcome. I've found a few on Jstor right now, but I'm sure some of y'all know some good articles.

I know, I know the point has been made before, so if the mods want they'll probably just cast the post into the darkness, but I have a slightly more elaborate point to make than just "poseurs bad".

I was thinking earlier. I actually only goth into goth in my like, mid 20s, by wondering randomly "what's goth actually about, anyway?" And looking it up, finding some music that struck me like a shot to the heart and getting hooked.

Only, then I remembered, that wasn't the first time I'd thought that and looked into it. The first time was when I was a teenager. But when I looked it up at the time, what I came across was instead forums and stuff by those "goth is a feeling" types who think they're goth because they like spooky shit and dressing in black. So back then, I thought "if it's just a feeling, what's the point? You'd be one by accident. That's just putting a label on nothing." And so, I bounced off it assuming it was basically just some people wanting a special label to feel important and different.

I got a bit annoyed remembering that. If there'd been better information back then – or if I was more thorough, perhaps, and they weren't hogging the most obvious goth site names for their poser shit – I might've got into goth way sooner and got to have good experiences with it and come across the music I like so much sooner. And that's why they suck.